With eight children, born in my 20s, 30s and 40s, I have inevitably thought about these things.
My view is that young people avoid children partly through selfishness: they have been taught to put their own individuality, their needs and career first at all costs; and partly through fear: it is very hard to go against your peers and the pressures to conform, especially if you lack religious faith, do not come from a large family so cannot see its benefits and do not have a wider family to support you.
I always found young men would naturally help me carry heavy luggage and lift buggies up and down stairs. They are not without chivalry to elderly women, though they cannot show it in front of the feminist sisterhood.
And the only way to combat loss of status and the isolation of caring for a baby in the suburbs is to make friendships with other women who are doing the same i.e. find a different sisterhood of articulate, intelligent, feminine women who feel as you do, preferably with religious faith to make sense of it all and absolutely determined to buck the aggressive modern ideologies of the joys of having a 'double income no kids'; or that you are polluting the planet (this comes from the Greens); or that you need your own space; or that men are a waste of time; or that marriage is unnecessary.
Really, the only way to change the culture is to be a strong alternative culture.
I totally agree. Despite living in an area that feels very “enlightened” and competitive, I had a very good community of strong and wise mothers when my kids were little. I always found it easier to wear my kids as I hated lugging stuff around so that made a difference too. After feeling ashamed at work when I was pregnant with #3 I woke up to how wrong that was and resigned, which was incredibly difficult to do.
Do you think that perhaps it is inefficiency, rather than vulnerability, which we despise and leave no room for? As a young mother life was a hot mess, and boy oh boy did society see that and let me know what they thought about. Yet now, having lived through the mess of the inefficient years, I find that admiration or even envy is the usual response to encountering our family, which ranges from 9-18. It's a completely different response from when I was managing strollers and car seats, and I'm not certain of why. Though, I am clearly of childbearing age and yet do not have young children, which gives the impression of being "done", so perhaps that colors the situation. I'd love to know if other mothers have noticed this difference in society's response as their children grow in competence.
I think a quicker way to say this is... Being the mother of little children who behaved like little children felt pretty low status. But being pointed out as the mother of capable, dependable, fun young adults feels like a high status position.
I think inefficiency is definitely part of it. Inconvenience and messiness are another. We have this idea that children need to sit still and be as emotionally regulated as adults. Two year olds don’t conform to those rules haha
A conversation somewhere on here awhile back got to this: how “barefoot and pregnant” is despicable but matriarch—with almost or full-grown children—is awesome. It’s another sign of our cultural amnesia. We (or most of us) can’t even connect the dots between the two roles. I’ve seen it and felt it, now that my oldest three kids are teenagers and helpful.
it’s funny how society has different feelings for different aged kids. my husband and some friends did a bike ride w kids for his birthday last month, and other bikers actively praised and cheered in the toddlers, while complaining that our older kids (7.5, 12, 13.5) were in the wrong in whatever way irked the adult biker: not paying attention, too close to them, not always in their bike lane. (we live outside seattle so the child hating mindset is strong here) i have three 13/7/2 and it’s funny to feel pretty judged by the age gap as well, like people don’t think i’m done (i’m not hahaaa) and just love to comment…..which is extra wild seeing as my 13.5yo daughter is a pretty amazing caretaker for my toddler, and my big kids are always helping. i mean, with my third toddler and older kids, struggling is not a word to describe my motherhood at the moment. but you know, “sure got full hands!” 🙃
Modern man (and woman) is a narcissist, with absolutely NO desire to work beyond what benefits them. Eternal youth, beauty, muscles, comfort, money, status, and — above all — CONTROL. Children throw a monkey wrench (a beautiful one) into that self-focus. I really think it’s as simple as that. The devil has successfully sold the lie that children are the doom of self-determination.
I cannot imagine the monstrosity of human garbage I would have turned out to be had I not had my four children — my *specific* four children. God knew what He was doing when He gave me them. And my husband as well. They have humanized me.
Modern man does not want to be *human*. He wants the illusion of control and immortality. It’s the modern iteration of the very first sin wherein Eve voluntarily believed Satan’s lie, and Adam willingly consented.
Great piece! I love your insights. I’m 47 and have had babies in my 20’s, 30’s, and 40’s. It wasn’t until the last few years that I started seeing the vitriol directed to women with “too many” children, or children in general, getting so loud. But I have seen a lot of the same things you described including people describing moms of more than a couple children as “brood mares”. It’s getting incredibly pervasive and really troubling.
*One slight correction. Generation X is actually the generation with the fewest number of divorces per capita. Boomers have the highest divorce rate, even still.
You’re totally right about the divorce rate. I was connecting divorce to impoverishment for Gen X, which is a less strong relationship (in my opinion) for the wealthy boomer generation. I may be biased by my own experience — my mom had to liquidate her 401k to pay for a divorce. My grandmother is ALSO divorced, but lives a comfortable enough life.
Brood mares? What a label, haven’t heard that one yet.
Or as an Orthodox Jewish friend with seven children puts it when people talk about overpopulation, "the world may have too many people like you, but it doesn't have enough people like me."
Gen X is the glue that quietly holds much of American society together at the moment. We are tough, quiet, loyal, and work our asses off. We also don’t give a toss about what people think of us. And we tend to stay out of things that aren’t our business. But we’re here, usually happily married and holding down the fort.
I don’t believe that every large family in the past was the result of people WANTING to have a large family. In some cases, having many children was necessary (e.g. farming); in other cases, so many children didn’t survive, having many children helped the odds (?); finally, lack of knowledge of fertility/family planning.
I agree that money will not fix this. First and foremost, I think the biggest factor in whether people choose to have children is if they live with a giving mentality. "How do I give of myself to my loved ones, my neighborhood, my city, my country, the world?" I don't see this mindset in people who are anti-family. You do, of course, see this with religious communities, but even among non-religious populations with high birthrates (eg secular Israelis, political conservatives generally). This mindset is eroded when there's 1) a loss of trust in a society (how many spouses have all their finances combined?), 2) a glorification of individualism, which you noted, and 3) an obsession with material comfort, where giving your child anything less than the best of every material good is considered irresponsible and relying on a stranger's patience (like when a child is making noise at a restaurant) is a borderline human rights violation.
Individualism enables hedonism, discourages graciousness, and destroys community. The family is the absolute antithesis of individualism.
I think safetyism is a major factor as well. Try taking a few kids with you to the grocery store in winter: get everyone ready and properly clothed - then buckled into a car seat - then out again - then load groceries and children again - then come home to unload. It’s exhausting. And only gets more difficult the more kids you have. Laws aimed at the safety of children were not written by parents.
Solution: talk about how awesome having kids is, be a great spouse, bring your kids places anyway, (especially when theyre cute babies!), talk about how birth was actually fine and kinda like being on a particularly unpleasant rollercoaster (you cant back out until the ride is done, yeah it is unpleasant but you’ll get through it and it doesnt take long, and you get a cute baby at the end of it), and feel privileged to be a stay at home mom, which you are. If your mindset and words change to “I *get* to be a stay at home mom” people will notice the difference, and you will be a lot happier. Most people dont actually love their jobs.
I am a mom of a bigger family, and I think I can still say I generally align with your views here, but one thing I often notice in takes like this is that no consideration is given to the fact that welcoming another child into your life is a weighty thing, every time. Be careful not to judge those who have a different approach to parenthood, in which quantity of children is not the highest priority. There is more than one way to be a holy Catholic family.
Do you not think men are chomping at the bit to lend a hand and help lift a stroller? Of course we are. It’s in our DNA. Decades of vicious attacks on males by our feminist/matriarchal culture, combined with the collapse of high trust societies across the West make it extremely risky to offer help to any woman for any reason in public.
This is a fair point. I try to make a point of asking young men for help if I need help carrying something when I’m out with my kids and they always respond like a gentleman. I think men get a lot of confusing messages from culture.
Exactly this. Both men and women have a role here. Men should continue reaching out despite the occasional rejection.
For us women, I said in the piece that “we should not be surprised that men do not want to help us with our strollers when we have consistently insisted that we are strong, independent women who “need men like fish need a bicycle.””
So I’m pregnant with my 6th child. I live in the Lincoln diocese in Nebraska. Most of my friends have 4 or more kids. I honestly had so many positive responses from people over this pregnancy. Nebraska is a beautiful place for families. We moved here from Oregon and every time I went shopping with my 2 kids I got comments. Now in Nebraska I mostly get positive comments in public. So if I lived in a blue state yes I would feel this more, but not where I am…
I will say I didn’t tell my progressive family about this pregnancy until the last moment before making it public. I didn’t want their pity or judgements. I had to explicitly tell my sister “I don’t need pity. I very much want this child and we’re happy.”
As a mom, I feel this. I also feel like our society lacks awareness of the people around us. When I was waiting for my ride at an airport a couple of years ago, I saw a tiny old lady struggling to lift a massive suitcase into a trunk. There were dozens of able-bodied men standing around without giving her a second look. I don't know if they didn't notice her struggle or didn't care. I ran over and helped her out. I feel like helping a senior lift a heavy suitcase is just common courtesy, like holding the door for someone or offering your seat to a pregnant woman. Have we lost basic manners?
This hits different at 30, less than two weeks from being married, and trying for kids right away!. But in a "i'm incredibly grateful I moved halfway across the US to Kansas to embed myself in a lively young faithful catholic community! The past 3.5 years here I helped as my friends had kids, hospital trips, parent's deaths, and just bad weeks/months. I know, that when/if I need them,, they'll be there when they can. But this is insanely rare! doesn't have to be, but is.
We do need more stable marriages, but to get there we need people who understand what marriage is, *acceptance* of what a marriage is, and people who are well-formed. I'm in my 40's and when I encounter people in their 20's and 30's I cannot believe the level of helplessness, wilful ignorance, and short-sightedness...and that's not covering the lack of understanding of marriage as a sacrament.
Thanks for sharing this. Even when I was teaching at a Catholic school, I didn’t get many accommodations or help from others. HR even told me that I couldn’t get FMLA until after I worked there for a year. Very disappointing. I ended up returning to teach in public schools and fine that there is more support for new moms.
I’ve spent the last ten years in a community that welcomes big families (lots of Catholics, lots of Mennonites) but three different summers I’ve led study abroad trips to London, first with three kids, then four, and now visibly pregnant with a fifth. I’ve been challenged in all kinds of ways by a city and culture no longer designed for big families, but have only gotten positive (often wistful) comments. We try to see ourselves as witnesses abroad, and also sounding boards for the college students we lead, many of whom are thinking their own private thoughts about what they want from life as they approach graduation.
Great article. We went into marriage assuming we would have a normal amount of kids 2 or 3 and after converting we see the beauty in gods design for marriage and family. Would love to hear a wedding culture rant.
With eight children, born in my 20s, 30s and 40s, I have inevitably thought about these things.
My view is that young people avoid children partly through selfishness: they have been taught to put their own individuality, their needs and career first at all costs; and partly through fear: it is very hard to go against your peers and the pressures to conform, especially if you lack religious faith, do not come from a large family so cannot see its benefits and do not have a wider family to support you.
I always found young men would naturally help me carry heavy luggage and lift buggies up and down stairs. They are not without chivalry to elderly women, though they cannot show it in front of the feminist sisterhood.
And the only way to combat loss of status and the isolation of caring for a baby in the suburbs is to make friendships with other women who are doing the same i.e. find a different sisterhood of articulate, intelligent, feminine women who feel as you do, preferably with religious faith to make sense of it all and absolutely determined to buck the aggressive modern ideologies of the joys of having a 'double income no kids'; or that you are polluting the planet (this comes from the Greens); or that you need your own space; or that men are a waste of time; or that marriage is unnecessary.
Really, the only way to change the culture is to be a strong alternative culture.
I totally agree. Despite living in an area that feels very “enlightened” and competitive, I had a very good community of strong and wise mothers when my kids were little. I always found it easier to wear my kids as I hated lugging stuff around so that made a difference too. After feeling ashamed at work when I was pregnant with #3 I woke up to how wrong that was and resigned, which was incredibly difficult to do.
Do you think that perhaps it is inefficiency, rather than vulnerability, which we despise and leave no room for? As a young mother life was a hot mess, and boy oh boy did society see that and let me know what they thought about. Yet now, having lived through the mess of the inefficient years, I find that admiration or even envy is the usual response to encountering our family, which ranges from 9-18. It's a completely different response from when I was managing strollers and car seats, and I'm not certain of why. Though, I am clearly of childbearing age and yet do not have young children, which gives the impression of being "done", so perhaps that colors the situation. I'd love to know if other mothers have noticed this difference in society's response as their children grow in competence.
I think a quicker way to say this is... Being the mother of little children who behaved like little children felt pretty low status. But being pointed out as the mother of capable, dependable, fun young adults feels like a high status position.
I think inefficiency is definitely part of it. Inconvenience and messiness are another. We have this idea that children need to sit still and be as emotionally regulated as adults. Two year olds don’t conform to those rules haha
Someone else on Substack proposed this recently (that your status changes when your oldest is around 12) and now I can’t remember who it was!
I think it was Lane Scott!!
A conversation somewhere on here awhile back got to this: how “barefoot and pregnant” is despicable but matriarch—with almost or full-grown children—is awesome. It’s another sign of our cultural amnesia. We (or most of us) can’t even connect the dots between the two roles. I’ve seen it and felt it, now that my oldest three kids are teenagers and helpful.
it’s funny how society has different feelings for different aged kids. my husband and some friends did a bike ride w kids for his birthday last month, and other bikers actively praised and cheered in the toddlers, while complaining that our older kids (7.5, 12, 13.5) were in the wrong in whatever way irked the adult biker: not paying attention, too close to them, not always in their bike lane. (we live outside seattle so the child hating mindset is strong here) i have three 13/7/2 and it’s funny to feel pretty judged by the age gap as well, like people don’t think i’m done (i’m not hahaaa) and just love to comment…..which is extra wild seeing as my 13.5yo daughter is a pretty amazing caretaker for my toddler, and my big kids are always helping. i mean, with my third toddler and older kids, struggling is not a word to describe my motherhood at the moment. but you know, “sure got full hands!” 🙃
Modern man (and woman) is a narcissist, with absolutely NO desire to work beyond what benefits them. Eternal youth, beauty, muscles, comfort, money, status, and — above all — CONTROL. Children throw a monkey wrench (a beautiful one) into that self-focus. I really think it’s as simple as that. The devil has successfully sold the lie that children are the doom of self-determination.
I cannot imagine the monstrosity of human garbage I would have turned out to be had I not had my four children — my *specific* four children. God knew what He was doing when He gave me them. And my husband as well. They have humanized me.
Modern man does not want to be *human*. He wants the illusion of control and immortality. It’s the modern iteration of the very first sin wherein Eve voluntarily believed Satan’s lie, and Adam willingly consented.
Great piece! I love your insights. I’m 47 and have had babies in my 20’s, 30’s, and 40’s. It wasn’t until the last few years that I started seeing the vitriol directed to women with “too many” children, or children in general, getting so loud. But I have seen a lot of the same things you described including people describing moms of more than a couple children as “brood mares”. It’s getting incredibly pervasive and really troubling.
*One slight correction. Generation X is actually the generation with the fewest number of divorces per capita. Boomers have the highest divorce rate, even still.
You’re totally right about the divorce rate. I was connecting divorce to impoverishment for Gen X, which is a less strong relationship (in my opinion) for the wealthy boomer generation. I may be biased by my own experience — my mom had to liquidate her 401k to pay for a divorce. My grandmother is ALSO divorced, but lives a comfortable enough life.
Brood mares? What a label, haven’t heard that one yet.
The proper response to being called a brood mare is "Thank you, evolutionary dead end."
Exactly 😄 I can’t help thinking that these horrible people who refuse to breed is probably a good thing.
Or as an Orthodox Jewish friend with seven children puts it when people talk about overpopulation, "the world may have too many people like you, but it doesn't have enough people like me."
Mic drop!
So long as we can keep them from infecting our kids before they go ...
Gen X is the glue that quietly holds much of American society together at the moment. We are tough, quiet, loyal, and work our asses off. We also don’t give a toss about what people think of us. And we tend to stay out of things that aren’t our business. But we’re here, usually happily married and holding down the fort.
I agree.
I don’t believe that every large family in the past was the result of people WANTING to have a large family. In some cases, having many children was necessary (e.g. farming); in other cases, so many children didn’t survive, having many children helped the odds (?); finally, lack of knowledge of fertility/family planning.
I agree that money will not fix this. First and foremost, I think the biggest factor in whether people choose to have children is if they live with a giving mentality. "How do I give of myself to my loved ones, my neighborhood, my city, my country, the world?" I don't see this mindset in people who are anti-family. You do, of course, see this with religious communities, but even among non-religious populations with high birthrates (eg secular Israelis, political conservatives generally). This mindset is eroded when there's 1) a loss of trust in a society (how many spouses have all their finances combined?), 2) a glorification of individualism, which you noted, and 3) an obsession with material comfort, where giving your child anything less than the best of every material good is considered irresponsible and relying on a stranger's patience (like when a child is making noise at a restaurant) is a borderline human rights violation.
Individualism enables hedonism, discourages graciousness, and destroys community. The family is the absolute antithesis of individualism.
I think safetyism is a major factor as well. Try taking a few kids with you to the grocery store in winter: get everyone ready and properly clothed - then buckled into a car seat - then out again - then load groceries and children again - then come home to unload. It’s exhausting. And only gets more difficult the more kids you have. Laws aimed at the safety of children were not written by parents.
Yes! Recently was discussing car seat laws and how you physically can’t fit more than 5 car seats in a car…kids are in car seats until 12 nowadays!
Solution: talk about how awesome having kids is, be a great spouse, bring your kids places anyway, (especially when theyre cute babies!), talk about how birth was actually fine and kinda like being on a particularly unpleasant rollercoaster (you cant back out until the ride is done, yeah it is unpleasant but you’ll get through it and it doesnt take long, and you get a cute baby at the end of it), and feel privileged to be a stay at home mom, which you are. If your mindset and words change to “I *get* to be a stay at home mom” people will notice the difference, and you will be a lot happier. Most people dont actually love their jobs.
I am a mom of a bigger family, and I think I can still say I generally align with your views here, but one thing I often notice in takes like this is that no consideration is given to the fact that welcoming another child into your life is a weighty thing, every time. Be careful not to judge those who have a different approach to parenthood, in which quantity of children is not the highest priority. There is more than one way to be a holy Catholic family.
Do you not think men are chomping at the bit to lend a hand and help lift a stroller? Of course we are. It’s in our DNA. Decades of vicious attacks on males by our feminist/matriarchal culture, combined with the collapse of high trust societies across the West make it extremely risky to offer help to any woman for any reason in public.
This is a fair point. I try to make a point of asking young men for help if I need help carrying something when I’m out with my kids and they always respond like a gentleman. I think men get a lot of confusing messages from culture.
You’re not wrong but don’t let it stop you. I’ve been reprimanded for merely holding the door for a woman, though never by a woman with a stroller.
Exactly this. Both men and women have a role here. Men should continue reaching out despite the occasional rejection.
For us women, I said in the piece that “we should not be surprised that men do not want to help us with our strollers when we have consistently insisted that we are strong, independent women who “need men like fish need a bicycle.””
So I’m pregnant with my 6th child. I live in the Lincoln diocese in Nebraska. Most of my friends have 4 or more kids. I honestly had so many positive responses from people over this pregnancy. Nebraska is a beautiful place for families. We moved here from Oregon and every time I went shopping with my 2 kids I got comments. Now in Nebraska I mostly get positive comments in public. So if I lived in a blue state yes I would feel this more, but not where I am…
I’m glad to hear that this is not common everywhere! Congratulations on your pregnancy.
I will say I didn’t tell my progressive family about this pregnancy until the last moment before making it public. I didn’t want their pity or judgements. I had to explicitly tell my sister “I don’t need pity. I very much want this child and we’re happy.”
As a mom, I feel this. I also feel like our society lacks awareness of the people around us. When I was waiting for my ride at an airport a couple of years ago, I saw a tiny old lady struggling to lift a massive suitcase into a trunk. There were dozens of able-bodied men standing around without giving her a second look. I don't know if they didn't notice her struggle or didn't care. I ran over and helped her out. I feel like helping a senior lift a heavy suitcase is just common courtesy, like holding the door for someone or offering your seat to a pregnant woman. Have we lost basic manners?
This hits different at 30, less than two weeks from being married, and trying for kids right away!. But in a "i'm incredibly grateful I moved halfway across the US to Kansas to embed myself in a lively young faithful catholic community! The past 3.5 years here I helped as my friends had kids, hospital trips, parent's deaths, and just bad weeks/months. I know, that when/if I need them,, they'll be there when they can. But this is insanely rare! doesn't have to be, but is.
We do need more stable marriages, but to get there we need people who understand what marriage is, *acceptance* of what a marriage is, and people who are well-formed. I'm in my 40's and when I encounter people in their 20's and 30's I cannot believe the level of helplessness, wilful ignorance, and short-sightedness...and that's not covering the lack of understanding of marriage as a sacrament.
Thanks for sharing this. Even when I was teaching at a Catholic school, I didn’t get many accommodations or help from others. HR even told me that I couldn’t get FMLA until after I worked there for a year. Very disappointing. I ended up returning to teach in public schools and fine that there is more support for new moms.
I’ve spent the last ten years in a community that welcomes big families (lots of Catholics, lots of Mennonites) but three different summers I’ve led study abroad trips to London, first with three kids, then four, and now visibly pregnant with a fifth. I’ve been challenged in all kinds of ways by a city and culture no longer designed for big families, but have only gotten positive (often wistful) comments. We try to see ourselves as witnesses abroad, and also sounding boards for the college students we lead, many of whom are thinking their own private thoughts about what they want from life as they approach graduation.
Great article. We went into marriage assuming we would have a normal amount of kids 2 or 3 and after converting we see the beauty in gods design for marriage and family. Would love to hear a wedding culture rant.