Feminists forget that some men long for children as much as their wives or girlfriends. Years ago an Oxford student had an affair with a young woman, who got pregnant. This was at an inconvenient time in her life and she wanted an abortion. The young man involved was desperate to save the baby's life and went to court, only to discover he had no legal rights at all.
However, the young woman finally agreed to give birth - on the condition he took total charge of and responsibility for the baby. He gladly accepted this condition and the baby flourished with him, especially when he later married happily, had more children and his oldest daughter took her place within the family.
Yes I was a little hyperbolic and bombastic there...it came from annoyance at reading/listening to ten million pieces and podcasts about the fertility crisis from 98% men where they mostly act like it's either some big mystery or because feminism and women having careers and education is bad. But even just in the few months interim, a lot more women have joined the conversation.
To clarify, I don't at all think that most women don't want kids. I think probably about 90% eventually will. But I also think most don't want more than 2, and also most don't want them when they're very young (and neither do most men, btw, now that they're expected to participate and bear more of the burden of raising them). I'd say the most common desire is one boy and one girl (very notable how when you see a big family of 4 or 5 nowadays it's almost a certainty that the first several kids were all the same sex and clearly thevparents kept going in hopes of getting one of the other). Then you have a smaller portion who just want one, and another smaller portion who want 3+. But when you go to the one extreme where it's people who want 5 to infinity children...in that arena men are probably 20 to 1 (partly because it's so much easier to achieve that as a man, if one has the means, a la Elon Musk).
The other thing is that among the 10%ish minority of people who truly don't want kids, ever, those forums are about 95% women, so it's the total reverse of what I was seeing from people worrying about the "fertility crisis". Even though there are men in that category too, it doesn't usually cause them tons of angst and no one's pressuring them or criticizing them like they do with women.
Anyway, I appreciate you disagreeing and being critical of my essay while still being civil! 😊 That's the other thing you might've noticed, is that the critical commenters who felt the need to be really nasty about it were all men (not that that was a surprise). Women of course can be nasty in many contexts, but this topic isn't usually one of them...I find it's generally men who are the ones who get very angry about it, which is part of why it seems to be that amygdala/reptile brain firing up.
Thank you for writing your piece — it helped crystallize a niggling feeling I’ve had about this issue for a long time. I think that the men who are out here sowing their wild oats (and of course not taking much responsibility for the children) are not the guys I see around me, thank goodness! But these men do set terrible examples and should be shamed imo.
What I see more often in my community is college-educated men who genuinely want to help raise children and have at least a few of them, and a lot of women who are reticent to entertain the prospect (these tend to be younger college-aged and educated women). It makes me think that there is a growing distrust between the sexes where (because of rough backgrounds like divorce? Media influence? Sexual assault?) women can’t or won’t trust men to 1) take care of them financially or 2) let them work a career if they so choose even when men attempt to assuage these concerns.
I’m still working it over in my head — this issue is endlessly complex.
When I write positively about motherhood, my strongest feedback is negative from men, saying that motherhood isn’t for everyone and no one should pressure anyone to have more children than they can handle. I obviously don’t tell anyone what to do in any way. I describe my own experiences. But speaking positively about motherhood makes people nervous, including men.
Hard to believe that if what Kryptogal Kate said was true, that the strongest voices wailing about the horrors of pregnancy and childbirth would be men. On substack, on Twitter etc. and if you look at Kryptogal’s comment section, it’s all men.
If you go on the “pregnancy is as dangerous as skydiving” section of Twitter, you will find 98% men and women who have never given birth or experienced a full term pregnancy.
That ought to give one pause.
Our son got lucky because of those folks on Twitter. When he wanted to go skydiving, I was like, I don’t think it’s that dangerous.
We're expecting our fourth child, and my husband and I often remind each other that while our life feels nuts sometimes in the moment..... are we going to regret it when our children are grown and we're old?? Not a chance. Parenting is hard in all stages, but I worry we are losing sight of what the fruits of that labor could be for our families, the siblings, our communities, the church, the wider world, and on and on..
I have one baby so far and want more soon! I did not have an easy path to a successful pregnancy the first time but God willing it may be different the next time around. Our son is the light and joy of our lives, I would do anything for him.
Also, in my experience, it’s women who want one more baby and men who don’t. I think there was a study done recently in which most mothers surveyed said they wished they had one more child regardless of how many they already had. I think this is because, paradoxically, many mothers seem to find that mothering is easier after having four kids (this is a commonly reported tipping point).
I think whether you believe having children is a bad deal for women comes down to your worldview. Christ told us that “he who loves his life on earth will lose it.” Physically and materially, motherhood is risky. Spiritually, it is as rewarding as can be.
I was just thinking about this piece by Kryptogal Kate. I think her position does not sit well inside the mainstream. But she has the right to share it. Sometimes I feel that writing positive things about motherhood
The biggest hole in her argument that is most obvious is the fact that so many women experience pregnancy and childbirth and go back and do it again.
That’s the most obvious point she misses.
There is also the idea that giving birth older hits the body much harder and carries more risk than giving birth younger, yet feminism encourages women to give birth at 40+ despite that. See ACOG (American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology) guidelines for post 40 compared to under 40.
I recall reading that Catherine, the wife of the Victorian Prime minister, Gladstone, said half an hour after the birth of her daughter Agnes: 'I would go through these pains again for another daughter such as this!'
Childbirth, though exceedingly painful, is also emotionally intoxicating for many women.
And bear in mind this was before chloroform eased the pains of childbirth. The Gladstones had eight children eventually, who grew up in a very happy (if intellectually bracing) household, where Gladstone showed great love and respect for his wife and treated her as his equal, though she did not have a 'career'.
Feminists forget that some men long for children as much as their wives or girlfriends. Years ago an Oxford student had an affair with a young woman, who got pregnant. This was at an inconvenient time in her life and she wanted an abortion. The young man involved was desperate to save the baby's life and went to court, only to discover he had no legal rights at all.
However, the young woman finally agreed to give birth - on the condition he took total charge of and responsibility for the baby. He gladly accepted this condition and the baby flourished with him, especially when he later married happily, had more children and his oldest daughter took her place within the family.
Yes I was a little hyperbolic and bombastic there...it came from annoyance at reading/listening to ten million pieces and podcasts about the fertility crisis from 98% men where they mostly act like it's either some big mystery or because feminism and women having careers and education is bad. But even just in the few months interim, a lot more women have joined the conversation.
To clarify, I don't at all think that most women don't want kids. I think probably about 90% eventually will. But I also think most don't want more than 2, and also most don't want them when they're very young (and neither do most men, btw, now that they're expected to participate and bear more of the burden of raising them). I'd say the most common desire is one boy and one girl (very notable how when you see a big family of 4 or 5 nowadays it's almost a certainty that the first several kids were all the same sex and clearly thevparents kept going in hopes of getting one of the other). Then you have a smaller portion who just want one, and another smaller portion who want 3+. But when you go to the one extreme where it's people who want 5 to infinity children...in that arena men are probably 20 to 1 (partly because it's so much easier to achieve that as a man, if one has the means, a la Elon Musk).
The other thing is that among the 10%ish minority of people who truly don't want kids, ever, those forums are about 95% women, so it's the total reverse of what I was seeing from people worrying about the "fertility crisis". Even though there are men in that category too, it doesn't usually cause them tons of angst and no one's pressuring them or criticizing them like they do with women.
Anyway, I appreciate you disagreeing and being critical of my essay while still being civil! 😊 That's the other thing you might've noticed, is that the critical commenters who felt the need to be really nasty about it were all men (not that that was a surprise). Women of course can be nasty in many contexts, but this topic isn't usually one of them...I find it's generally men who are the ones who get very angry about it, which is part of why it seems to be that amygdala/reptile brain firing up.
Thank you for writing your piece — it helped crystallize a niggling feeling I’ve had about this issue for a long time. I think that the men who are out here sowing their wild oats (and of course not taking much responsibility for the children) are not the guys I see around me, thank goodness! But these men do set terrible examples and should be shamed imo.
What I see more often in my community is college-educated men who genuinely want to help raise children and have at least a few of them, and a lot of women who are reticent to entertain the prospect (these tend to be younger college-aged and educated women). It makes me think that there is a growing distrust between the sexes where (because of rough backgrounds like divorce? Media influence? Sexual assault?) women can’t or won’t trust men to 1) take care of them financially or 2) let them work a career if they so choose even when men attempt to assuage these concerns.
I’m still working it over in my head — this issue is endlessly complex.
When I write positively about motherhood, my strongest feedback is negative from men, saying that motherhood isn’t for everyone and no one should pressure anyone to have more children than they can handle. I obviously don’t tell anyone what to do in any way. I describe my own experiences. But speaking positively about motherhood makes people nervous, including men.
Hard to believe that if what Kryptogal Kate said was true, that the strongest voices wailing about the horrors of pregnancy and childbirth would be men. On substack, on Twitter etc. and if you look at Kryptogal’s comment section, it’s all men.
If you go on the “pregnancy is as dangerous as skydiving” section of Twitter, you will find 98% men and women who have never given birth or experienced a full term pregnancy.
That ought to give one pause.
Our son got lucky because of those folks on Twitter. When he wanted to go skydiving, I was like, I don’t think it’s that dangerous.
We're expecting our fourth child, and my husband and I often remind each other that while our life feels nuts sometimes in the moment..... are we going to regret it when our children are grown and we're old?? Not a chance. Parenting is hard in all stages, but I worry we are losing sight of what the fruits of that labor could be for our families, the siblings, our communities, the church, the wider world, and on and on..
I have one baby so far and want more soon! I did not have an easy path to a successful pregnancy the first time but God willing it may be different the next time around. Our son is the light and joy of our lives, I would do anything for him.
Also, in my experience, it’s women who want one more baby and men who don’t. I think there was a study done recently in which most mothers surveyed said they wished they had one more child regardless of how many they already had. I think this is because, paradoxically, many mothers seem to find that mothering is easier after having four kids (this is a commonly reported tipping point).
I think whether you believe having children is a bad deal for women comes down to your worldview. Christ told us that “he who loves his life on earth will lose it.” Physically and materially, motherhood is risky. Spiritually, it is as rewarding as can be.
I was just thinking about this piece by Kryptogal Kate. I think her position does not sit well inside the mainstream. But she has the right to share it. Sometimes I feel that writing positive things about motherhood
The biggest hole in her argument that is most obvious is the fact that so many women experience pregnancy and childbirth and go back and do it again.
That’s the most obvious point she misses.
There is also the idea that giving birth older hits the body much harder and carries more risk than giving birth younger, yet feminism encourages women to give birth at 40+ despite that. See ACOG (American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology) guidelines for post 40 compared to under 40.
I recall reading that Catherine, the wife of the Victorian Prime minister, Gladstone, said half an hour after the birth of her daughter Agnes: 'I would go through these pains again for another daughter such as this!'
Childbirth, though exceedingly painful, is also emotionally intoxicating for many women.
And bear in mind this was before chloroform eased the pains of childbirth. The Gladstones had eight children eventually, who grew up in a very happy (if intellectually bracing) household, where Gladstone showed great love and respect for his wife and treated her as his equal, though she did not have a 'career'.